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Assagioli answers questions about the will, the self, and the practical application of psychosynthesis. It was an interview he gave shortly before his death to Beverly Besmer.
By Beverly Besmer; Translated by Ella Ostermann
Source: Height Psychology: Discovering the Self and the Self,” an interview conducted by Beverly Besmer, in Interpersonal Development, 4, 1973-4, pp. 215-225
Introduction
When I first wrote to Dr. Assagioli about learning psychosynthesis, he replied in his letter: ‘My body is 85 years old.’ He was an English-speaking Italian, and I thought ‘strange’, because you usually say, ‘I am 85 years old.’ But Dr. Assagioli’s answer was absolutely correct and precise, because he used psychosynthesis, which is his life’s work. You will soon understand what I mean.
I requested this interview with Dr. Assagioli when I attended a course in personal and didactic psychosynthesis in Florence under his supervision, and with his associate Dr. Piero Ferrucci. I wanted to ask Dr. Assagioli some questions that were not covered in the book: Psychosynthesis. He read the written questions in advance (Dr. Assagioli has a hard of hearing) and then asked me to write my answers. (This is his usual procedure). To my great surprise, I was able to do it almost entirely with the help of the manual.
After reading these questions and answers, Dr. Assagioli prepared the following response, which we recorded on April 12, 1974. The introductory remarks concentrate on his thoughts on certain areas that are key to understanding the psychosynthesis process. Then follow his remarks on the framework for, and the practical application of, psychosynthesis, and on the directions that humanistic thinking and psychotherapy will take toward—interpersonal development. Third, he addresses the subject of psychosynthesis in teaching.
I asked Dr. Assagioli about women’s psychology and psychosynthesis, and he referred me to an interview with Claude Servan-Schreiber in the first issue of Syntese magazine (see bibliography). Dr. Assagioli did not answer my questions about his private life. I would have liked to hear him tell his personal story, but it is clear that work occupies all his time and all his thoughts, despite his advanced age.
You can tell that Dr. Assagioli’s work is born from his own experiences. He uses the techniques every day. To me, he personifies the spirit and vision of psychosynthesis. Many consider him to be an extraordinary person. Warmth, joy, energy, kindness and generosity, humor and clarity radiate from him and permeate his work.
Psychosynthesis is based on a view of man, and of man in relation to others. With the help of psychosynthesis, the individual can gradually achieve a dynamic, harmonious integration of body, emotions, mind and spirit. And the integration is accompanied by an outwardly active dynamic harmony in human relationships. By connecting inner harmony and outward action, psychosynthesis links two modalities that we have become accustomed to thinking of as distinctly Eastern and distinctly Western, respectively.
Upon a cursory reading of Psychosynthesis , many, including myself, find the content obvious. At first glance, much goes unnoticed or is met with a hasty ‘I know that’ nod. This is due to the deliberate simplicity and unpretentiousness of the exercises, as well as Dr. Assagioli’s language. Perhaps it is also due to what I sometimes experience as the brilliance of the meaningful – that which makes sense. It is true that just because the thoughts are obvious does not diminish their value, usefulness or depth. On the contrary, we have here a profound description of the nature of human consciousness: we tend to look askance at obvious truths and simple exercises. One must listen and reflect and hear to understand the importance of this work: to uncover the self and the Self (BB).
The self – the center and core of the human being
Roberto Assagioli (RA): The first question I always get is: What is psychosynthesis and how does it differ from other therapies and views of the human personality? One: it is based on experience. It is empirical and existential in the sense that it is a result of my own and others’ experiences. The description of the theories is not theoretical. It is an account of subjective experiences.
Let us assume that there is a center in the human personality, a core, a conscious self, which is not the whole personality, but only a point of pure self-awareness – an observer of all the content of the personality. How can this hypothesis be verified? Through a variety of experimental techniques.
The basic technique is the practice of dis-identification of consciousness from all the different contents of the personality, with the subsequent revelation or uncovering of the self – pure self-awareness/attention. It is thoroughly described in Psychosynthesis .
Exercise in dis-identification
I place my body in a comfortable and relaxed position with my eyes closed…
The first thing I do is to affirm with conviction and become aware that:
‘I have a body, but I am not my body. My body can experience itself in different states of health…’
‘I have feelings, but I am not my feelings. These feelings are countless…’
‘I have desires, but I am not my desires, which are aroused by my psychological and emotional drives and by external influences…’
‘I have an intellect, but I am not my intellect. It is more or less developed and active…’
After this dis-identification of the ‘I’ from its consciousness content (sensations, feelings, desires and thoughts), ‘ I recognize and affirm that I am a center of pure self-awareness …’.
(From Psychosynthesis, chap. IV).
The dis-identification exercise is based on the understanding that in our personality we have many things, but that we are not these things. For example, we have a body, but we are not this body. We have feelings, but we are not the feelings, because these change, are contradictory, and so on, while self-consciousness is always the same. For example, when we say, ‘I am tired,’ it is a misunderstanding of psychological grammar. ‘I’ cannot be tired; the body is tired. So the correct formulation would be, ‘my body is tired.’
Instead of saying, ‘I am angry,’ one can say, ‘the feeling of anger is present in my self, in my consciousness.’ And the same with the mind. It is working all the time and registering many things. But I am not the mind. ‘I have a mind, but I am not a mind.’ What is left then? Only ‘I,’ the observer of the whole panorama, of the glamour, of the changing personal life.
Beverly Besmer (BB): That’s a vivid picture. I wanted to make it clear that the meaning you give to self-identification and dis-identification differs from other common uses of the terms. I also feel that there is a tendency to underestimate the positive push of the exercise. It’s a simple and amazing experiment that pays off.
RA : The problem is that neither psychologists nor anyone else has ever done this simple experiment. It is as scientific an experiment as the ones they do with rats or in other ways. Everyone who has honestly and willingly done this experiment has come to the same conclusion.
BB : Does it have any connection with meditation?
RA : To strengthen and stabilize the observer’s pure self-awareness, periods of inner silence, which become gradually longer, are necessary to create what is called the empty space in the field of consciousness.
Then one discovers another important function of the self: it is not just an observer, but can also be active and change the personality. That is, it can control and regulate the various functions of the psyche. It can be someone who wants to .
The will is an undiscovered potential
BB : That leads to the question of will.
RA : It has been strangely neglected by psychology, and has rightly been called the Cinderella of modern psychology. I have devoted an entire book to the subject. (The Psychology of the Will):
“Discovery of the will within oneself and, even more, the realization that the self and the will are intimately connected, can come as a revelation that can change, often radically, a person’s self-perception and entire attitude towards oneself, other people and the world. One now perceives that one is a “living subject” who has been given the will to choose, to relate and to create changes in one’s own personality, in others and in life circumstances. This heightened awareness, this “awakening” and vision of new unlimited possibilities for inner development and outer action gives a new feeling of trust, security and joy – a sense of “wholeness.”
But this original revelation, this inner light, despite its power and inspiration at the time of its occurrence, is apt to grow dull and die out or to give only irregular flashes. This new realization of self and will is easily overwhelmed by the constant waves of drives, desires, emotions and ideas. It is crowded out by the endless influx of impressions from the outer world. Therefore, the need is obvious to protect, cultivate and strengthen the original experience so that it may become a lasting possession and its great possibilities may be put to use.”
(The Psychology of the Will, pp. 14, 15.)
“Therefore, a proper understanding of the will implies a clear and balanced view of its dual nature: two different, but not contradictory, poles. On the one hand, the “power element” must be recognized, appreciated, and if necessary strengthened, and then wisely implemented. On the other hand, it must be recognized that there are volitional actions that do not necessarily require effort. Based on experimental research, Aveling and others have observed that …” volitional action can be completely effortless, even in the performance of difficult actions …” .
( The Psychology of the Will, p. 24.)
RA : The will can be experienced. We can become aware of it and learn to use it through experimentation. It is there. We just have to uncover it and use it.
BB : So psychosynthesis is uncovering the personal self – an observer and a willer.
The Higher and Transpersonal Self
RA : A third step in psychosynthesis is the recognition that the personal self, the pure self-awareness at the core of personality, is the reflection of a higher transpersonal Self.
BB : The word ‘higher’ is problematic.
RA: Many people resent this distinction between a higher and a lower self. In the introduction to my upcoming book Altitude Psychology and the Self, I explain it:
“In parallel with this (historical) trend (of a two-dimensional psycho/physiological and mechanical study of humans and animals as objects that can be observed and described from the outside), clinical psychology has developed – i.e. the psychological study of abnormalities … a psychology that deals with real human problems and living people and inevitably creates … a human connection between patient and therapist. …
The observation of abnormalities, and especially of what were initially called ‘subconscious’ psychological activities… led to the recognition of another dimension of psychology – the depth dimension…. In this way the beginnings of a three-dimensional psychology were created.
But the emphasis was placed almost exclusively on the lower aspects of the human personality, and the higher aspects were ignored or even denied.
Therefore it can be called a ‘two and a half dimensional psychology’, that is, the two surface dimensions and the direction ‘towards the depth’, towards the lower aspects. This Freud has openly acknowledged in a letter to Binswanger … in which he suggests that there are other floors, other levels in man. However, Freud was not interested in them, and therefore he developed a psychoanalytic theory and practice which ignored them…
In recent times a new psychology has been developed … devoted to the study of the normal and higher aspects of human nature … humanistic psychology. …
Within the fields of humanistic psychology, there has been a further development that is about recognizing, investigating, and evaluating the more distant horizons of human nature…
There are two confusions or misunderstandings which have been clearly recognized and clarified. One is that the term ‘depth psychology’ has been used by several psychologists to indicate both the downward direction, that is, the lower unconscious, and the higher aspects of the unconscious, which for the sake of clarity should be called ‘superconscious’.
Jung is a typical example. … In his doctrine of archetypes he includes both archaic primitive concepts and higher ideal models, which are related to Platonic ideas. Thus, when he speaks of the ‘unconscious’, he does not make clear the difference between its different levels. Others have also used the term ‘depth’ in this higher, transpersonal or spiritual sense. … Several mystics, when describing their experiences … speak of the ‘deeper’ Self, the ‘ground’ of the Soul. It is essentially a question of semantics, but the ‘depth’ terminology has had the unfortunate effect of confusing the two directions, which are not only different but opposite.
The term ‘high’ or ‘height’ has been used in both the East and the West to denote what one might call religious or mystical experiences. Mountains were believed to be the abode of gods or higher beings … and therefore sacred. … Maslow has used the words ‘low’ and ‘high’ extensively in his description of human needs. He speaks of … a hierarchical order (… especially in Motivation and Personality , p. 97 ff.).
A common reason for the opposition to the term ‘high’ is semantic. There is an unfortunate affinity between the words ‘high’ and ‘low’ psychologically and the moral value attached to them. … The word ‘low’ used morally denotes something inferior, something to be removed or suppressed. But this is a misconception. ‘Low’ and ‘high’ denote, and often do, only a stage of development. … This can be demonstrated by a very simple biological example. A child is shorter in stature than an adult; a child is at a less developed stage than an adult. But this does not mean at all that the adult as such is ‘better’ or the child ‘superior’. From both a psychological and a moral standpoint a healthy child is better than, or a neurotic adult superior to. … The existence of these stages of development is an indisputable fact.
It has been objected that the word ‘high’ implies a moral judgment which is irrelevant to objective science. However, a purely objective psychology (in that sense) cannot be used, because values are psychological facts. … They must be reckoned with in a comprehensive psychology, in a comprehensive study of human nature …
There is generally a resistance to recognizing these higher faculties because it seems to imply a duty to achieve them. Or there is a fear of the world, as Maslow so brilliantly demonstrated, and there is a strong reluctance to admit this fear. … All forms of behaviorism are opposed to it…
Another reason or pseudo-reason for the reluctance… is a mistaken view of the equality of all men and the democratic ideal. … It seems almost an insult to admit that there are people of higher psychological as well as spiritual stature. This attitude is manifested in a neglect of … and (suspicious) reluctance towards … gifted and highly gifted individuals, especially children and young people … (and occurs) among those of the same age and among teachers who should know better …
As Maslow so brilliantly described, there is a fundamental ambivalence; some are drawn in an exaggerated and even fanatical way… to peak experiences, breakthroughs and insights and use artificial means to achieve them, while others actively turn against them. And sometimes this ambivalence exists within the same individual.
Never mind, the culprit is not the word ‘high’, but the very existence of these more distant horizons. The situation would have been the same even if they were not called ‘higher’…
But despite the existing confusion and conflict in the understanding of human nature, … there is a rapidly growing … interest in and understanding of what is called human potential …”[1]
RA : But for the benefit of those who are resistant to the Higher Self, we now prefer to speak of the transpersonal Self , a neutral term meaning that which is beyond and transcends the personal self. But it is nothing else; it is the source of reflection. For example, the sun can reflect itself in many mirrors. There are not two suns (in our solar system). It is exactly the same reality reflected on another level of reality. The basic quality is the same. It is always light and heat, but weakened and colored.
But I will not dwell further on the transpersonal Self, because in psychosynthesis it is often enough to have a clear understanding of the personal self. There is much more to be said here on the personality level – other things that can be directly applied in practice.
The practical application of psychosynthesis
BB : I would like to hear about things that can be used in practice.
RA : Psychosynthesis started as, and is still used for, the treatment of nervous psychological disorders and their psychosomatic effects on the body. But it is becoming more of a kind of preventive medicine. One might call it ‘mental hygiene’. Other important areas of application are self-actualization in the sense that all the functions of the personality are fully active.
RA : Another area of application is interpersonal relationships. The individual is not isolated. He is in a network of personal relationships. In psychosynthesis we have thoroughly studied interpersonal relationships. The basic relationship is the couple relationship. The first couple is mother-child. Later comes the couple man-woman.
Another personal relationship is the relationship between therapist and client, between teacher and student. Here it must be emphasized that there can and should be a genuine interpersonal relationship, which is not the transference that psychoanalysis speaks of, that is, the projection of infantile drives and fantasies onto the therapist. This may be the case in the beginning. But a genuine constructive relationship can and should develop between therapist and client. I have described the different stages of the interpersonal relationship in my pamphlet on ‘Jung and Psychosynthesis’.
(a) The transference – actually originally attributed to Freud, i.e. the patient’s impulses, attachments and feelings towards the parents in childhood are projected onto the doctor…
(b) The special relationship created by what is called the therapeutic situation. In this the therapist represents and exercises a fundamentally ‘fatherly’ function. He must, to a certain extent, assume the role and task of protector, advisor and guide…
(c) A human relationship that develops as the treatment progresses and evokes different psychological reactions at different levels. … The transition from the second to the third type of relationship is valuable and indispensable for many reasons, above all to help the patient’s increasing autonomy …
(d) The dissolution of the relationship when treatment is completed. This is a critical point and must be approached with wisdom. I said ‘dissolution’ and not termination of the relationship, because the positive relationship can continue afterwards in some form, either as a friendship, a collaboration, or both…
RA : Then there are social relations, which are a very important and urgent area where psychosynthesis can be applied: between individuals and groups, between ever-larger groups. The physical body is a good picture of the right relation. A biological cell is a tiny individual in itself. It has its own functions. It receives material from the blood and lymph and emits some products. But it is necessary for it to function healthily that the membrane surrounding the cell is neither too thick nor too loose. If it is too thick, these exchanges become difficult or stop altogether, and the cell dies. If it is too loose, too permeable, the cell dissolves. So it is a question of the right kind of permeability.
The same thing happens with individuals and groups, and groups and groups. Let us imagine that the cell has an individual consciousness and that it gradually becomes conscious of cells of the same kind, and gradually of the organ they form together, for example a gland. And then that the individuality of this gland expands its consciousness and sees its relationship with other glands, and then with the whole organ like the liver or the stomach. Then these large groups of cells can become aware that they belong to a whole organism, and that their real purpose, meaning and function is the general health of the whole organism. In a healthy human body there is an incredible mutual cooperation between these functions.
Unfortunately, we in humanity are very far from that situation. But it is a model that we must work towards in humanistic psychology: right relations between pairs of individuals, groups of individuals, groups and groups. Psychosynthesis can in this sense be called a process of development from the individual to the universal through a series of successive groups that expand. The fine design on the cover of this magazine shows it well. Right relation leads to the fundamental identity between the individual and the universal – what we can call the central mystery of life.
The relationship between the individual and the universal
BB : Are you referring now to the application of psychosynthesis for spiritual or transpersonal development?
RA : Yes. There is a fundamental identity between the individual and the universal. But that is not a fact recognized in consciousness. Let me use an image. If a drop of water had a consciousness and extended it to include the sea and the ocean, it would say, ‘I am of the same nature and essence as all the water on this globe. It is all hydrogen and oxygen.’ But it would be ridiculous if the drop considered itself to be the ocean. There are some far-reaching theories, especially in the East, which emphasize this identity. As far as the level of essence is concerned , they are right. But it is a misunderstanding to connect these theories with other levels of reality and personal functioning. Sentences like, ‘I am Brahman, I am the One,’ clearly need to be modified. They may express a metaphysical ontological truth, but the personal self has clearly not reached the expanded level of consciousness. There is a difference in development . Like the drop of water, the personal self, although of the same essence, has not developed the universal consciousness of the ocean.
BB : I really like this image. It really makes the difference between the personal self, the transpersonal self, and the universal self clear. With these last words, I think you have answered my question about the direction humanistic thinking and psychotherapy should take. Now I would like to hear your ideas about psychosynthesis in teaching.
Psychosynthesis in teaching
RA : The application of psychosynthesis to education would in a way revolutionize the whole idea and practice of education. There is already a growing tendency to see education not as ‘the giving of information’ but as a development of the child’s or student’s personality. But one can go much further and view education as a developmental process of gradual growth towards adulthood and maturity, because the potential is already there.
Here another image can help: the one with the seed and the fully grown plant, let’s say an oak tree. In the seed is all the potential of the oak. So the teacher should not come up with anything new. He should simply create the most favorable conditions for the healthy development and growth of the seed through the small plant and the seedling to the fully grown tree. It seems obvious, but applying it in practice would be in a way revolutionary.
For example, a parent should see in every child a developing adult, and therefore treat it as such, as a potential adult – potential – and clearly see the different stages of the child’s development, each of which requires a special handling. The same with a teacher. It is a kind of elicitation of latent possibilities. It can be done individually and in groups, and especially through activities – the creative activities of the child or a group of children, which are facilitated by the teachers, but not served ‘ready-made’. There are all sorts of applications of this.
One could say that teaching in this sense is a constant experiment , and a constant collaboration between the adult and the child or student.
BB : I like that – cooperation between adult and child. It seems obvious, but where can you see it applied in practice? Would you be so kind as to give an example of what you mean.
RA : Here’s a current example. There was an area in the United States, a mountainous area, where people were quite poor and neglected by the authorities, and they badly needed a school. But people couldn’t get one. Then a creative teacher came along and said, ‘Let’s build the school ourselves.’ And he gathered a group of young people who were half-grown and said to them, ‘Let’s build a school.’ They started cutting down trees. They built a house out of wood, and little by little they furnished it and got the necessary materials. And the parents cooperated and gave money and materials and so on. But it was the group themselves that built the school under the teacher’s leadership. And he didn’t just direct the physical work. He taught them all sorts of things: the price of things, about using money, what kinds of materials, how to use tools, how to get tools. And he experimented and gave out tasks according to the abilities of the young people. And in the end they had not only a school, but a confluent learning.
That was the most important result. In a sense, the physical school was a by-product of the education of a group of young people.
BB : That’s a beautiful example. But in the schools that already exist, the chance for such a revolutionary task doesn’t arise very often. It can’t be done because the schools and teachers are busy with other work. How can psychosynthesis be used in today’s classrooms?
RA : The classroom should gradually become a workshop, that is, a place where creative projects are invented and carried out in collaboration. But always with the goal in mind that the execution of the project is not the most important thing. It is only an opportunity to make the group participants, including the teacher, fully functional. Of course, it should be used differently in primary school, secondary school and university. So there is the possibility of inventing many different relevant projects for each individual situation. For me, it is both interpersonal development and psychosynthesis.
Future challenges
BB : Before we end, I would be grateful if you would say a little about the future of humanistic thinking and psychology.
RA: It is contained in the broader subject of the future of humanity through the implementation of the psychosynthetic point of view and the many techniques that exist and can be used for this purpose. The future of humanity depends on psychology. I will give a very current example, the problem of aggressiveness and of averting war. History has shown that all other means, legal means, in the form of treaties and agreements did not work and do not work. We must get to the root. And the root is the existence of aggressive drives and the urge for self-assertion and the resulting conflicts that arise in all groups. Therefore, in psychology, and especially in psychosynthesis, there is the principle of transmutation (enrichment) of energies. Thus, instinctive psychological energies can be refined and used, controlled and channeled to other constructive purposes. I have written on this subject: (See the article: Transformation and sublimation of the sexual drive ).
I think that those who truly desire peace should study the application of the general principle of the transformation of psychological energies, and especially of the aggressive, combative tendency of individuals and groups.
BB: May I ask you what your purpose is in giving this interview?
RA: To provide a true picture of psychosynthesis and its usefulness and applications.
Bibliography:
Assagioli, R.: Psychology of Will (Kentaur Forlag, 2004).
Assagioli, R.: Jung and Psychosynthesis (The article is available by clicking on the link).
Assagioli, R.: Psychosynthesis : (Living Wisdom, September 2005)
Brown, GI: Human teaching for human learning . An introduction to confluent education (The Viking Press, New York 1971).
Brown, GI: I have things to tell (Psychosynthesis Research Foundation Reprint, No. 14, New York 1973).
Synthesis : the realization of the self (Psychosynthesis Press, Redwood City, Calif. 1974).
[1] (Excerpt from the introduction to Assagioli’s forthcoming book, Altitude Psychology and the Self . Publisher’s note: The book was never published, as Assagioli died the same year this interview was given. After his death, the book Transpersonal Development was published, which contains similar statements to those in the above, as it is a collection of surviving writings. The book was published in Danish in 2006).
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