In this interview, Assagioli talks about the need to take the soul or Self, as he chooses to call it, into psychology. The self is the core of self-awareness which is central to every human being.
An Interview by Stuart Miller (1974)
Source: First published in Intellectual Digest, August 1973.
An 85-year-old prophet leads us through a wilderness of instincts and complexes to man’s most extreme reach.
For the past 60 years, Roberto Assagioli has worked as a player, psychotherapist and teacher. He lives in an old stone house on the outskirts of Florence, and continues to work 10 hours a day despite his advanced age. In recent times, Roberto Assagioli’s ideas have attracted increasing international attention. The ideas are combined in such a way that various elements such as common sense, Freudian psychoanalysis and an interest in the utmost reach of human nature are combined. In October (1973), Intellectual Digest published the first major American article, «The Will of Roberto Assagioli», as an advance review of his book: The Psychology of the Will.
In this article, Assagioli talks about his current project, a volume he tentatively calls «Height Psychology and the Self». By playing on the phrase «depth psychology», Assagioli states that psychology must recognize man’s highest qualities in order to complement and complete the prevailing emphasis on man’s instincts, drives, complexes, pathology, etc. The central and subtle concept in this height psychology is the notion of «Self» with a capital S. From a certain perspective, Self and soul are the same. This new book will attempt to bring the concept of the human soul back to the center of empirical psychology.
The soul as a concept is not unproblematic.
Roberto Assagioli (RA) : In classical or philosophical psychology, the soul was a very central concept. But with the advent of modern psychology, people were inclined to think that «the soul is out of date».
Well, they remained unfashionable for a long time, but now wonderful things are happening. Although many psychologists abhor it, many independent psychologists return to the concept of the soul. It is encouraging, but the word «soul» is a bit unfortunate here because it is used in such different and contradictory ways.
The traditional understanding of the soul is that it is a spiritual being – it is central to the Christian religion and likewise in Vedanta, which is an important branch of Indian philosophy. But within other religious languages, «soul» is used in a different way, as more or less synonymous with ego, personality or consciousness.
Philosophers and psychologists have also used the word «soul» with different meanings. The German philosopher Keyserling equates the soul with the emotional nature. Jung describes his somewhat complicated understanding of «soul» in his book: Psychological types :
In the same way that our daily experiences justify that we talk about an outer personality, we can also justify the belief that an inner personality exists. The inner personality is the way we relate to the inner psychological processes, which is the inner I mention the outer attitude…. persona and the inner attitude I call anima or the soul .
In general parlance, one talks about the soul of a nation and so on. Therefore, I find it better to avoid the word as much as possible (or at least to emphasize the specific meaning each time it is used).
The self defined as a center of pure self-awareness
Usually, it is more useful to use the term “Self” with a capital S instead.
The common word «self» is usually used to denote a person’s personal self, as discussed in connection with «self-identity», etc., for each person’s higher or transpersonal self.
The diagram shown above makes the difference clear. My students call it the «egg diagram». Their joking is a way of emphasizing that the diagram is just a rough map and not the landscape of human psychology. Despite that, I have found it very useful. The lower level corresponds to what Freudian psychology calls the unconscious; the basic drives, complexes charged with intense emotions, etc. The middle belt represents the middle unconscious – the elements which are latent, resting or active in the personality, but of which we are not aware at the moment. Above we find the transpersonal or the higher unconscious , the superconsciousness which is the source of much of what we consider the best in man: artistic inspiration, ethical insight, scientific intuition , etc.
The circle in the center of the diagram roughly represents the area of our existing consciousness. The lower unconscious content, new information from the middle unconscious and likewise impulses from the superconscious flow into this field of consciousness.
The personal self is simply represented as a central point independent of any specific content, information or impulses. Each of us has this central point of personal consciousness that we can experience simply by recognizing that we experience different types of content in consciousness, but we are not this content. This means that we experience our emotions, but we know in a fundamental way that they are not us. We have thoughts, but they are not us. We have bodies, pains, ecstasies, but they are not us. How else can it be that our emotions, thoughts, our bodies change so often, while at the same time we maintain a fundamental experience of identity?
The fact is that we unconsciously and carefully know how to disidentify ourselves from all this passing content, these experiences can become conscious if we are conscious. This consciousness is self-consciousness – the consciousness of the personal self. The personal self is the human core at the general level, the level of personality. It is the center for our general psychological functions: the mind, emotions, sensations, imaginations, etc.
On the higher human level, it is likewise a being centered on the higher functions: artistic inspiration, ethical insight and scientific intuition. It is our true core and it is in all of us, but the personality is usually not aware of it on the general level.
Therefore, in many cases it does not affect people’s feelings and thoughts. But often it does. In fact, the personal self can be considered a reflection of this higher reality, and the personal self and its general functions (thoughts, emotions, sensations, etc.) can be recharged by the vital energies from one’s transpersonal Self . (see diagram).
When a great artist receives an important inspiration, this is roughly what happens: the artist’s transpersonal Self acts through the superconscious and sends energy down into the field of consciousness. This is also what happens in relation to other important inspirations.
Experiences of the Self
Stuart Miller (SM): Is this experience only reserved for great artists, scientists and religious geniuses? Or can «ordinary» people also experience this?
RA: Not only can we, we often do. But the very outermost reach of man, as Maslow called it, is subtle contacts. Therefore, it is often useful to refer to famous people, at least as a starting point.
Thomas á Kempis gives an example in his book: Following Christ. Seen from a psychological point of view, we can see that the «Christ» that Thomas is talking to is Thomas’ own higher Self . I do not say this to deny that there are realities beyond the individual. As you can see in the diagram, the star of the Self is located partly within the individual’s oval and partly outside. It indicates that the individual Self is in contact with what could be called the universal Self. No matter what, thousands of people, perhaps millions, have had experiences with the Self and have given testimony to this. In India it is traditionally called “Atman”. Some of the deeper Christian mystics have been aware of it and have given it various names, the «Peak», the «Ground», the «Center» and the «Inner Essence». I am particularly happy with Auguste Gratry’s description of the contact with the transpersonal Self because it is so alive: I felt it as if it were an inner form…full of strength, beauty and joy…a form of light and flames which supported my whole being: a stable unchanging form which was always the same and which I found again and again during my life. At times I lost sight of it and forgot it – but I always recognized it again with joy and the proclamation: «This is my true being».
There are many other testimonies, but most of them are colored by the individual’s special experience and are mixed with elements such as the means of the experience, its results or the individual’s special religious faith. This is partly because the Self is a particularly difficult subject to talk about and to understand. It can and has been experienced as the immediate fact of consciousness. With that lies outside the realm of the rational concept. It is like an aesthetic sensation or intuisjon , an immediate conscious experience, outside the mental and intellectual realm.
This does not mean that it is «irrational» in a negative sense. I could imagine using the term «para-rational» and in some cases «supra-rational».
The difference between Assagioli’s Self, Freud’s superego and Jung’s self
SM: Can one think of this soul or this transpersonal Self as an inner voice from on high? Can you distinguish the voice of the higher self or transpersonal self from a more common psychological concept – the superego or the Freudian conscience? Are they expressing the same thing just with different names?
RA: No. The self is different from the superego or “conscience”. As a starting point, it is structurally and ontologically different. The superego, in contrast to the Self, cannot be considered a «being». It is a mixed product composed of different elements with different origins. Freud describes the superego as created by the sum of introjecting commands, limited feelings of guilt and condemnation which all stem from the words and actions of the parents, and from actions from the «moral» attitudes of the current culture.
To activate the living relationship that exists between the Self and the personality, I often ask my clients to perform an exercise. It consists of entering into a written dialogue with one’s higher self , where one hopes for and expects a response. This disarmingly simple technique often gives good results if one is also alert to false messages from other parts of the personality.
Recently, one of my clients, a 35-year-old American professor, wrote this dialogue. He discovered that he started with glimpses of his Self and gradually the Self began to «speak» in a clear and distinct way. My client spontaneously described the difference between the higher Self and the superego.
«The higher Self is, as far as I know, not like the superego. The higher Self does not issue orders, does not force, and he is not rude. He makes suggestions, he points out ways – he is more mental, in a pure sense of the word. The superego, on the other hand, is full of emotional tension. He pushes and encourages… The self seems lofty, dressed in white… strong (but in a faint shade) and radiating candy like Fra Angelico’s (Resurrection). He has the quality of a teacher. If he demands something, he opens himself up to it. He is there .
In contrast, I imagine my superego as dark, colder and even stony. It is a frown on his face and a hammer in his hand. He hammers and knocks away splinters. He threatens and forces. He exhausts and repels me. One is the principle of freedom and love, the other the dark principle of servitude”.
This is an evocative piece of writing, but it is only one way of experiencing the difference that is conditioned by the writer’s specific circumstances. For example, the mention of Fra Angelico comes from his visit to the San Marco monastery in Florence, where I recommended him to study Angelico’s paintings. The use of inspiring works of art is one of several methods that can be used to evoke the Self. The client was in what Viktor Frankl calls a «crisis of meaning» and both of these techniques, along with other work, were useful in summoning his highest inner resources. I will nevertheless correct his evocative description by saying that «the superego is not just bad» and leave this paradox without saying more.
SM: How does Jung’s conception of the Self differ from yours?
RA: Jung’s concept of the Self was not specific and it changed along with the development of his psychology. Without going into a long discussion about this, one can say that it is different from both Freud’s superego and from the perception of the Self as having a substantial own reality .
The practical use of the Self
SM: How can we use this reality? To what extent are we talking about something practical?
RA: One of the most important explanations for the Self returning to reality is the incredible search for self-identity. In the past, a person took himself or herself for granted. It accepted itself as it was, or more often, he identified himself with the group he belonged to: the family, the clan, the tribe, the class, the nation—or, if he was religious, with some great being or with God. But in our time, which may very well be a time of great crisis, then all these identifications fall away and the individual is thrown back to himself. This surprises him because he does not know who he is and that is the main reason for this widespread «existential torment».
This search often brings people into a new type of identification – with temporary groups, their sexuality, work, hobby, etc. But sooner or later these identifications will fall away and the crisis will return.
The way out of the crisis is found through the investigation and discovery of who we are. But also through the consciousness of the personal self, which is independent of all identifications and in a wider sense of this self, as a reflection of the transpersonal Self .
To answer your question in another way, I can say that the Self becomes a source of guidance, enlightenment and inspiration, but also for the development of human potential.
I see clients who are quite «normal» in the general sense and yet personally and socially successful. But they are not satisfied. Their interest is further development. There are two levels to this. One level is the development of their personality in a rounded form which is quite common. Here are the emotions, the mind and the intuition
brought into a harmonious function. It has been called «self-actualization». I use the term «personal psychosynthesis».
For many, this is enough. But others feel a «calling» to use an old expression. They are attracted by the possibility of expanding consciousness into the superconscious far-reaching spheres all the way up to the experience of the Self. This is the true Self -realization and what I call the transpersonal or spiritual psychosynthesis.
Many of the young – and the not so young are in a crisis in relation to this area. Some try to achieve peak experiences through drugs or other methods. Often they have these experiences spontaneously. But these experiences are temporary and these people fall back to the ordinary level and then they become disillusioned, they wonder why they cannot remain at the «top».
What is happening is that they have to some extent ascended into what Richard Bucke and others have called «cosmic consciousness», a condition which has been confirmed by people in all times and in all cultures. But their personality is inadequate to handle these higher experiences, so they experience a sudden or gradual fall.
These people need a structure that allows a continuous and gradual ascent, and it is made up of first the living reality of the consciousness of the personal self and then the higher Self. From this awareness comes an understanding of the spontaneous and motivating experiences and this leads to their including a psychoanalytic phase, which is not necessarily a formal detailed psychoanalysis.
After this and sometimes at the same time comes the experience of Self-awareness. After that, the Self can be called upon as a guide in the long human development process. In relation to the practical aspect, I will answer your question that the cultivation of Self-awareness on a large scale will serve to bring the highest human energies and inspirations into human life. We truly need to tap from these sources. I think that is obvious.
Note: The book was not completed when Assagioli died in 1974, but was later published as a collection of writings under the title: Transpersonal Development after his death. This book has been translated into Danish and can be purchased as an e-book in the webshop.
